Use of Arms/Legs when Defending

In the 11th Edition, I believe the section in question is "XVI.H.3.c Blocking Fouls" which reads:

(1) When the disc is in the air a player may not move in a manner solely to prevent an opponent from taking an unoccupied path to the disc and any resulting non-incidental contact is a foul on the blocking player which is treated like a receiving foul (XVI.H.3.b).

(2) A player may not take a position that is unavoidable by a moving opponent when time, distance, and line of sight are considered. Non-incidental contact resulting from taking such a position is a foul on the blocking player.

I think it is fairly common practice to occupy the 'lane' that the person you are defending wants to take.  I would further that to indicate that stepping in front of a cutting player or doing something (i.e. extending your arms to stop the normal motion of the player) would be a violation of (2) above.  By creating a position where contact is unavoidable, the defense has committed a foul.

Thrower/marker fouls clarified with regards to 11th ed...

A distinction is made between contact with the marker’s arms/legs vs. torso. Basically, if there’s contact between the thrower and the marker’s arms/legs, it’s a foul on the marker unless their arms/legs were completely stationary. If there’s contact between the thrower and the marker’s torso, it’s a foul on whoever initiated the contact (unless the marker is also violating a marking rule, like disc space). However, if this contact occurs as a result of the thrower and marker both vying for the same unoccupied position, and therefore it’s unclear who “initiated” the contact, it’s a foul on the marker. [11th Ref: XVI.H.3.a)]

“Disc space” is now a marking violation. The new definition of disc space now includes provisions against wrapping one’s arms around the thrower and straddling the pivot foot. This is done by defining disc space as the space between the thrower and “any line segment between two points on the marker’s body”. What this means is that if an imaginary line is drawn that connects the fingertips of a marker’s two hands (for example), that line cannot touch any point on the thrower’s body, and has to be one disc’s diameter away from the thrower’s torso and pivot. In addition, the fact that this is now a call has the added benefit that if the thrower is being fouled on the mark, he or she can choose to call the disc space violation instead of calling a foul.

Is it illegal to do so when the disc is not in the air?

Also what if the contact IS avoidable?

IE - If I am trying to get around my defender to get open, and they spread their arms to get an extra 6 ft I have to get around (but not at the last moment,  I can still avoid their arms but not get around the 6 ft "moving bubble" they have created)?

That's an interesting question, Craig.  It would appear that the rules do not deal directly with the specific question you are asking -- regarding deliberate use of arms and legs to obstruct a receiver's path.  I would think that Steve's comments above could probably be used to deal with such action and make it improper.  I would also note that the spirit rule would suggest that such actions are improper.  Also, I don't know the rule offhand (I'll look it up), but I believe there is a rule stating that players are to avoid intentional physical contact at all times.  I think that intentionally sticking your arms out to block a player's path (or to make yourself a larger obstacle) would violate both the spirit rule and the rule against intentional physical contact.

In the past, I have always dealt with this situation in the rec context by telling the player politely that it is inappropriate to use arms to block me in that manner and the response has usually been positive.  I have not yet had a player try to do that in the competitive context.

Duane

Steve, Christopher, Duane thanks for your help.

It is useful having this forum to ask these sort of questions.

From the 10th edition (no longer in use...)

Legitimate position: Legitimate position is the stationary position established by a player's body excuding extended arms and legs that can be avoided by all opposing players when time and distance are taken into account.

However they took this definiton out of the 11th edition. This would make the play you described illegal, but it is no longer in the rules. I'll inquire about this and find the correct interpretation. I do not think they would have willingly changed this rule.

Official word: (From Mark Moran, on the UPA rules board)

"That legitimate position wording was removed because it caused more harm (i.e., arguments) than good.

It's still the same basic concepts as before. Being that whoever initiates contact is guilty of the foul, unless you're committing a blocking infraction, in which case it's the blocking player.

So, standing or running with your arms out is (and continues to be) just fine, as long as you're not doing solely to block the other player (when disc in the air) or having them in an unavoidable position (at all times). Except for those cases, if someone runs through your extended arms, foul on them."

asking the UPA for clarification.

I apologize for my confusion, but I am not 100% sure I understand the UPA rule...

Sounds like it is legal a long as the arms are not moved in someones way at the last moment (in which case it is a blocking foul)?

If someone's arms and I arrive at the same spot at the same time, that falls under XVII A (allowed to occupy any position as long as it does not cause contact)? In which case it would be a foul on the Defender as well?

However if the defender is clearly set before the offensive player gets there it is a foul on the O.

Just want to make sure I have it correct after effort everyone has put in. ;)

I'll summarize.

Blocking fouls are only if the disk is in the air (think high floaty pass and instead of trying to catch the disc you put your arm out to stop another player from playing the disc.)

When the disc is not in the air, you are allowed to put your arms out and if an offensive player contacts them then it would be a foul on them. Unless of course you throw your arm out at the last second as they are running by and they do not have time to avoid it.

Hope that helps.

Thanks again to everyone for the assistance.

Surprised to learn it is allowed, as players with their arms out to take up space seems to increase the chance of contact (even if it is unintentional) , but glad to know nonetheless.

I agree with you that this rule is now a little weird. In 10th edition, it matched your original interpretation, but in the new 11th edition, defenders can now use their extended arms to occupy space and force the O to go around unless the disc is in the air or the O can't avoid the arm.

Here are some possible strategies for dealing with this:

1. It's hard to move quickly with your arms out, so taking a hard step in one direction will probably get the D to lower their arm.

2. You could duck under it, and if they move the arm down, it's their foul.

3. You could do it to them and see what they call.

--
the answer, my friend, is hammer in the wind
the answer is hammer in the wind
-Bob Dylan

Thanks for the ideas on dealing with the change.

basically you cant do it unless you arent really getting in the way by doing it, in which case youd look like an idiot standing there sticking your arms and legs out lol

They may have changed the rule slightly to stop an offensive player from barrelling through a person's arms and legs to crash the cup.

No matter how you look at the rule, in practical terms, how often this call is used in a game is dependent on who you're playing with. This won't be called very much in Open/Women's (more liberal take on the rules), while in co-ed it is probably more likely to be called. That's part of why this game is so interesting! haha